[00:00:05] Speaker A: The Michael Hatfield REMAX team presents Real Estate and more.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: Bay Area real estate is different than all of America. And why? What's up with home buyers? What's on sellers minds? How is the market? And much, much more.
[00:00:22] Speaker C: Now here's your host, Michael Hatfield.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Well, welcome to the Real Estate and More Show. Today we're in for a fascinating conversation with a man who whose expertise has shaped public understanding of our criminal and civil law. Michael Cordoza, renowned trial attorney and legal analyst, is no stranger to the courtroom nor to the camera. From high profile homicide cases to the toughest criminal trials, his legal acumen has been showcased in some of the nation's most challenging cases. His passion for justice and strong commitment to demystifying the law is nothing less than inspiring. Please, let's give a Warm welcome to Mr. Michael Cardoza. Welcome, Michael.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Thank you, Michael.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, shoot, there's nothing like experience. And I don't want to say that you're of a higher vintage or older or anything like that, sir, but experience is everything in many cases. And you have it starting out with prosecution and then eventually getting into the defense trial. You started out in the Los Angeles district attorney's office, then went to San Francisco County DA's office. You became a senior trial attorney in Alameda county and practiced there for more than a decade before founding the Cardoza Law Offices where you practice criminal defense law. There has to be a lot of passion for you to gain that level of experience, especially as a prosecutor and respected district attorney. For simple people like me.
What was the motivator for you? Michael?
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Well, I've got to tell you, when I was in law school, and I think it was my second year, took a class called Evidence, and I had no idea where in the law I was going to end up. But our evidence teacher honestly was so inspiring.
And as he taught us, he was very practical. And he would talk about cases, a lot of civil cases. We do civil law, too. And as I listened to him, I thought, I want to do that. I want to be a trial attorney. I want to try big cases. And I remember and for the people that are a little bit older out there, I thought to myself, I want to try cases that are above the fold. Now a lot of people are going, what's above the fold? Well, that's when we didn't have all this media that we have nowadays, and high profile cases were on the front page of newspapers and newspapers were folded in half and above the fold meant headlines. And I thought, you know, I want to try headline cases. So That's a exactly where I pointed my career.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Man, you have done it for sure. Well, for simple people like me, what are the primary, just the primary steps in the legal process from when a person is first accused of a crime before his case ever gets to trial?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Well, it's, you know, it's interesting because when people are accused, most people that hear about it, radio, television, newspaper, whatever, they go, oh, they're guilty. And here's something that I always, and I talk to my clients about this because when I do high profile cases, I instruct them they are not to talk to the press. I will do the talking because anything I say cannot be used against my client if they talk, no matter where it can be used against them. The most innocent comment oftentimes is twisted either by the press, the police, or the DA's office. Or it can be. So what I tell my clients is how many times you look on television or hear on radio, I have no comment. What's your first thought when you hear.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: That there might be guilty?
[00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I say you are not to say no comment. If anything, if they really corner you, you are to say, I'd love to talk with you, but my attorney, Michael Cardoza, says I can't. In fact, he sort of threatened me if I did. And I do threaten them a little, saying you were not to say no comment. Tell them you'd love to talk to them because they would. And explain your half of the story and then leave it at that. And that's a much better sound bite for them.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. So what is a good description of a trial attorney in your mind? How do you define a trial attorney? Isn't it just a whole specialty by itself? I know that with your law offices you probably have research and you have investigators and lawyers that all come together, but then when it goes to trial, they want the guy with the most experience, which seems to be you.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, they do. I mean, people are pretty clear about that at times. They want to be sure that I'm in court. And a lot of them, and I explain this to them because they become a little unreasonable at times. Well, I want you at every court appearance. No, you don't need me at every court appearance. If it's just to go in and say we're going to continue this case a month or we're moving it so you don't need me to stand there and do that. So I have other attorneys in my office that are outstanding lawyers, that they make appearances for them, but they do demand that I try the case. And that's what I do. I mean, I love to be in a courtroom in trial. It's tremendously stressful, but it. It appeals to all sorts of different facets of my personality because I. I love the intellectual interplay. I love the theatrics of it, because you really are performing in front of a jury. And how you do that, you learn it through the years. And one thing I will say, if there's any aspiring trial attorneys out there, it's you've got to not be afraid to try cases, don't be afraid to lose. A lot of trial attorneys are afraid to go to trial, and sometimes they sell their case a little short or they plea bargain a little short of what they really should get because they're trepidatious about going to trial.
And a lot of attorneys. And this is. I'm shunting off a little. Whenever I hear an attorney say, I've never lost, you know what jumps into my mind? You're not telling the truth. That's number one. Number two, you haven't tried many cases. And number three, if you hadn't tried many, haven't lost, then you've tried cases with videos and all sorts of evidence that anybody could win the case almost. And I'll jump off that a little, because there's no such thing as a sure winner in a trial. You never know what a jury will do. Allah, O.J. simpson. Who would have ever guessed in that case that that jury would have walked? OJ There are all sorts of reasons that happened. So when I hear people say at slam dunk, I go, why don't you drag yourself into that courtroom and see what it's like? Now, I've seen people lose cases with the best evidence around, but you still lose. You never know where a jury will go. But again, the message is, don't be afraid to lose. If you lose, you're gonna learn something. You go in, you get beat around a little, especially when you're younger. I remember one case. There were two cases I tried when I was a DA in San Francisco. One was against James Martin McGinnis. Now, a lot of people won't know that name, but he was the trial attorney in San Francisco at that time. And I tried a case against him. I was lucky enough to win it. And then a guy named George Walker right behind that, who was a premier trial lawyer. And when I went in, I learned so much from them. But I'm not sure how I say this. I remember trying the case with James Martin, and it was a Simple dui. Because I was a young lawyer, and he got up in front of the jury. I mean, he was wonderful. I had all the facts in the case, and the guy was a high blood alcohol level. But the defendant in that case, I know, paid James Martin a whole lot of money to get him to defend him. And in the case, James Martin got up, he quoted poetry. He was so eloquent in talking to the jury. And I sat there just mesmerized, and I thought, what am I going to do with this when I get up in closing. Closing argument to counter what he said? So I get up, and I was young and brash, and I got up and I said, ladies and gentlemen, you heard. You just heard one of the best trial attorneys in this country. He was eloquent, he was logical.
And I'm looking at. I started to look at me and say, you are so good. And that was such a wonderful argument.
But what did that have to do with the facts of this case? Nothing. I said, your elegance is wonderful. Eloquence is wonderful.
But what'd that have to do with this? Then I talked about the facts, and we got really, a quick verdict in it. But I learned so much from watching him then with George Walker. I was really schooled in a couple things by him. But that's how you get good. Don't be afraid to lose.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. I don't know if you knew this, Michael, but I spent a lot of years with Delta Airlines, and the last few that I spent was in the check pilot, the FAA designated check pilot regime. And we would do check rides with captains and their crews that would need it every year. So I'd sit on the jump seat, and I would know what the procedures would be, but I'd see him fly it just a little bit different. Oh, I never thought about that. You know, never thought about doing it that way. But that's how we learn. And again, we're right back to the theme. Experience is not everything, but it's everything.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: It is everything, and you have to certainly keep up with everything. Like I tell my kids, though, I said, be careful what you get good at. Make sure you love it. I happen to get into a career that I absolutely love. I mean, to this day, I still love doing what I do. But there are a lot of people that get good at something and they're miserable in their life because they just don't like the job or what they're doing. So, you know, a lot of people go, I want to do this because I'm going To make a boatload of money at it. Well, that's good. And a lot of money is a good thing for all of us. But if you're not really happy, what's the point of it? Yeah.
[00:11:10] Speaker C: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
[00:11:16] Speaker D: Welcome to the Real Estate Minute with Re Max expert Michael Hadfield. Michael, what traits should we look for in selecting an agent?
[00:11:23] Speaker C: Look for a deal maker with a positive attitude who will work tirelessly for you. An agent who is adept in multiple offer situations, drafting contracts, marketing and advertising. A client's home is familiar with multiple cultures, experienced in mortgage financing. Inspections and escrow is a huge asset to his client.
[00:11:43] Speaker D: What can you do as a plus for clients?
[00:11:45] Speaker C: Your agent is your eyes in your ears. One who works behind the scenes on your behalf. A great attitude, working well with others and keeping clients priorities number one is a given for us.
[00:11:56] Speaker D: Call 925-322-7775 now to schedule an appointment or complimentary home analysis. For excellence in real estate, call the Michael Hatfield Re Max team at 925-322-7775 or go to michaelhatfieldhomes.com being with Michael.
[00:12:14] Speaker E: And Nancy, I was a first time homebuyer and I was very nervous about the process. I didn't really know what to expect. Michael and Nancy were able to take that fear away from me and answered all of my questions. They were right by my side the entire time and they really helped me find the perfect home for me and I'm so thankful. Well, we were in the market to buy a house in Pleasanton for a very long time. So we saw this beautiful house. We walk in, we see Michael and Nancy. We just absolutely love this house. Michael brought in a wealth of knowledge and experience to the whole home buying process. He was very professional. And both Michael and Nancy went way above and beyond to help us and to help us achieve the house of our dreams.
[00:12:57] Speaker C: And now back to our show.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Just this morning I walked in here to get things set up for our fun time and I was talking with a lender and she was saying, you know, I'd sure like to get into podcasting or something like that because, you know, it's been kind of different for the last three years, making loans for people and I need something that's, that's a little different. And I said, what you're talking about is you probably need to think a little more on what your dream is. Because as I've gotten older, I notice that you get used to the routine Everything is the same. And you forget to dream.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: You do. I'll tell you what I've taught my kids, and I still do it. And like I tell them at times, I said, sometimes I give really good advice. I said, I wish I could follow some of it at times, but I give good advice. And one of the things that I've told them, and I still talk to them about it, some of my kids sometimes say, you nag me about that.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough, that's normal.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: But to set goals, and I think it's really important to sit down, like at the beginning of the year. And if it's not the beginning of the year, other times you sit down and you think, what do I want to do this year? What goals do I have? And you've got to write this down. You can't just think about it. There's some magic in writing goals down. And you write down at the end of the year, for example, if you're in school, I want to get all A's, or I want to get an A in this class, or B, or I want to read so many books. And then you break it down into monthly goals. Then you do daily goals. And every day you get up, you look at your goals, and you say, today, I'm going to get this accomplished. Now, a lot of things I tell them, don't put too many things down on your daily goals. Don't do that too many. Do one or two or three, and make sure you get those done. If you don't get it done, that's the first thing you do the next day. But when you write your goals down, it focuses you. I want to sell so many homes. I want so many listings. You, you write it out and then you work. I go, oh, my God, I only have two listings this month, so I better get hustling about that. And I'm going to sort of shunt off on you a little when you talk about the lady in the loan business.
I'll. I'll go back a little. I. I grew up in San Francisco. My dad was president of the Police Commission, and I graduated law school. I didn't want to work in the San Francisco DA's office because of my dad being president of the Police Commission. That was under Joe Aliotto when he was mayor. So I went to la, and then from la, I spent a couple years there, then back to San Francisco, then I jumped to Alameda county, where I was there 13, 14, 15 years, something like that. But at the point when I finally decided I need A rest because I tried over 50 murder trials. And I go, man, I'm running out of steam. I went in to a savings and loan to work, and everybody thought I was nuts. Yeah, you know all the attorneys, what are you doing? You're a trial attorney. You try murder cases. You try high profile stuff. What are you doing? I said, I just want to go learn something else. Said a lot of us lawyers are lousy businessmen. We don't know anything about real estate. We don't know how to invest. And I thought, okay, I'm going to do that. So I go into the savings and loan business. I laugh because they're going, how boring. You know, when I went in, when Keating and the boys from Arizona and everything went in the tank and Fislic FDIC was on savings and loans and banks, and I'm working at a savings and loan in the loan department. Running a loan department after six months. And I learned so much there. I only worked in that business for two years. But I learned so much that when I got back into trying cases again because people, after I left there, people would come to me. I thought, well, maybe I could do defense. I can try loan cases. I've represented loan brokers and the government. Prosecutors were always astounded when I crossed their experts and go, let's talk. You know, is it an adjustable. We're talking about. Are we talking about another type of loan? And I'd go through loans and I had. I understood the language, I understood, you know, my abilities to cross examine. It all helps. So every experience in life, when you're a trial attorney, you bring to the table in your ability to cross examine.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Want to get this out of the way. Most of us have seen Michael's appearances On Oprah Winfrey, 60 Minutes, 48 Hours. He's performed as a legal analyst on CNN's Larry King Live, NBC Today Show, Fox News, and others. He's currently a legal analyst for Fox News Channel 2 television. We are so blessed to have him on the show today.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I also do cron too.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: He does KRON4 in San Francisco.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: They're kind enough. Actually, every other Thursday in San Francisco, I sit down with our anchors for about 10 minutes and I find that's really fun because you talked about communicating with the public.
A lot of the public doesn't understand what goes on in courtrooms or what goes on like the momenti trial that just happened. Yeah, they really form opinions and don't, well, why are they doing that? What's this? And I've got an opinion. Okay, fair enough. You got an opinion based on what? You know, the little you hear.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Didn't they put him on the stand?
[00:18:46] Speaker B: They had to, yeah.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: And then you were commenting on that when what I saw and your comment was spot on. And what was that again is that.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Well what, what happened was, if you remember moment he said it was self defense. We went out from my sister Kazar's house, there's a long story there. But they went out, they got in the car, they drove to point. He said, I made a bad joke. This was many that said this and this was what the defense was putting out. He made a bad joke and Bob Lee got upset and came after him with a knife. And you know, the jury found that not to be credible at all. But in order to get a self defense before the jury, your client has to get up and tell the story. Now most defense attorneys are loathe to put their client on because you lose all sorts of control when you put them up there. You do mock cross examinations. For example, in the Scott Peterson case, I was the one that the defense hired to cross examine Scott Peterson and the mock cross before he was supposed to testify. I guess blowing a little smoke. After I was done with him, they decided not to put him up. Okay. Because he wasn't going to do so well, apparently they thought. And in this case they had to put Momenti on the stand. And I would assume they prepared him like crazy. But once he hits the stand and I tell my clients this all the time, move up in the chair, sit on the edge of the seat, pay attention and don't get cocky when you're up there. Don't think you're brilliant, don't think you're going to out thank the da. You answer the questions, but don't relax. When clients, defendants in criminal cases get on the stand and you sort of see him leaning back and they think I'm doing real good here. And no, you're not. You know. And what happened to Momenti? His personality came out on the stand, he started to argue with his da. He was asking questions of the da. He was told a number of times, quit asking questions. You don't get to ask questions here. Jury watches that and goes, whoa. If you're like this on the stand in a controlled situation and you're this obstreperous, what do you like on the street? My lord. And that's why defense attorneys don't like to put their clients up. But they had to in this situation.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: Because he was the One that was saying that I'm, I did this in self defense. So he had to state what his case was and if he did so, they had to put him up. But you never, a defense attorney would never want to put up a client, as you said. But what about a prosecutor wants to get him up there, correct?
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Well, of course they always want to get them, but they can't call him to the stand. He has the right against self incrimination. So the only way a defendant in a criminal trial gets on that stand is if he or she, the defendant makes the decision. It's not even our decision, although we try to influence. Now if you have a really good intelligent client that you believe that's articulate and can get up there and tell their story, then you want to put them up. But there are times when I vodkir juries and I know my guy's not going to testify, I know my defendant's not going to testify. I begin to, you know, talk to the jury and say, you can't consider that. You can't carry that bit of information into the jury room and say, well, he didn't testify. He must. You can't do that.
[00:22:15] Speaker C: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: ReMax and here's Michael Hatfield.
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[00:23:07] Speaker D: Get help with buying or selling by calling the Michael Hatfield re max support team at 1-800-857-63. That's 1, 800-857-63.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: And now back to our show.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: And I ask other tourists, if anybody does it, you've got to jump them and say we cannot talk about that. We cannot consider that because they have a right. Now the reason and the other thing I talked to jurors about, I say, you know, there are times when people can get up and tell you the truth and they are telling you the truth, but they're sweating. They can't quite get some words out because they're so nervous, emotional and emotional. And I said, there are reasons that sometimes we don't. Even though he didn't do this, there are all sorts of reasons. You know, they look fidgety that just because of their personality. So I say, and that's why you can't consider why they didn't testify. Because the reason isn't because he didn't do it or did do it. They didn't want to talk. No, there are other reasons, and you're not to explore any of those. But it is tough when you put someone up and it is because as you're sitting there as a defense lawyer, your heart is going. You're about to have a heart attack sitting there, you know. And I'll tell you one story. I put a guy on the stand who. I said, you're not going to testify. I said, you cannot tell a story. You're too volatile. I'm testifying. I said, my advice to you is do not get on that witness stand. I'm getting up there. I don't care what I said. You're right. Okay. I prepared him. He got up there.
I said, do not react to the da do not do it. He will try and dig at you and get you upset. Be calm and collected. Well, I couldn't have been 20 minutes into the cross by the DA where he asked my guy a question. And my guy looks and yells at him, why would I do that? What are you. And I just leaned back and I went, well, there's your guilty verdict, buddy. I told you, don't. But they don't. Some don't listen.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: They don't listen. And it's that way in real estate, too, Michael. We have clients. And you say to your clients, don't tell the media anything. And the reason is. And people want to bake the potential buyer of their house cookies, and they want to tell them about the sprinkler that broke and they talk about the green pagoda that they have in the yard. All of these things can be construed as being part of the seller disclosures. And they don't even know it. Some statements, totally innocent, could actually work against them to some degree. And so I can, I can certainly see how, you know, you would feel.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: I'd like, though, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I do laugh in the sense of having worked in the SNL business and seen a lot of real estate deals. I laugh because there are times some people will come to me for real estate advice and I'll talk especially about disclosure on homes and you and I both know, especially an SFR single family purchase is all emotional. Yeah, it's very emotional. Well, should I disclose this? Should I disclose that? I. I tell them disclose everything because you're not going to get sued later. Yeah. You know, if you don't disclose that the sprinklers broke or there's floods in the backyard every winter, then they're going to turn around and sue you. If you didn't tell them when it didn't help, I go tell them. Most people are so emotional about like, I don't care about that. That's perfectly fine. And there it is. But people trying to hide stuff don't.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: You got to listen to your trial attorney and you got to listen to your realtors, too. That's why you want an experienced realtor anytime that you go to buy something. But anyway, you moved over into the defense side of things. You found at Cardoza law offices. You tried over a thousand different trials.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Well, that's way too many. No, no, no.
I'd be a thousand years old. Probably 200 plus jury trials.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Okay. And then you went to verdict with all of these or just parts of them.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: And part of them were court trials, misdemeanor trials, felony trials.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: So there's a blend of a lot of different trials. Yeah.
[00:27:16] Speaker C: Well, I have to give credit where credit is due. Nancy said we get caught up in conversation and would need more time. And that is exactly what happened. Talking with Mr. Cardoza, from his courtroom stories to his reflections on the legal system, it's clear why he is a trusted voice in law, in television and radio. His insight, his passion, and taking the time to give us a deeper understanding of how the justice system works is valuable and much appreciated. You can reach Michael cardoza by dialing 925-27-42900. Mr. Cardoza will have to come back next week and finish our conversation. So tune in next week for Michael Cardoza high stakes trials and insights for part two. You will not want to miss it. You've been listening to the real estate and more show. We'll be back in a moment with our next special guest. Stay tuned.
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