[00:00:02] Speaker A: The Michael Hatfield re Max team presents real estate and more. Bay Area real estate is different than in all of America.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: And why?
[00:00:11] Speaker A: What's up with homebuyers?
[00:00:14] Speaker B: What's on sellers minds?
[00:00:16] Speaker A: How is the market? And much, much more. Now here's your host, Michael Hatfield. Welcome to the real estate and more show. Today we are to hear from as close as we can get to the horse's mouth. We are going to talk about bad blood that ran deep between two appalachian families after the Civil War. With the hardship conditions the way that they were, there was no forgiveness. On the show we are to talk about decades of the red blood war between the Hatfield and the McCoy families and hear it from the third generation great great grandson of William Anderson, called Devil Anse Hatfield. Devil Lance was the patriarch of the Hatfield family. The feud began in 1863 between best friends, neighbors and fellow soldiers, and then after the war between the states. And it lasted for many decades. My guest on the show today is truly a nice man, the curator of the Hatfield McCoy Museum and foundation in Sara Anna, West Virginia. Growing up in Appalachia, as a Hatfield, he is to share what he knows and remembers from this time in our american history. And I'm so appreciative that you are on the show today, sir. Welcome, Mister Jack Hatfield.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Thank you, buddy. It's great to be here. Appreciate you having me.
It's an honor.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: You've done so much with that museum and foundation that, you know, the world needs to know about it. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Jack, and how you connect to the patriarch, the man that ran the feud back after the civil war. And how do you connect to him, Jack?
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Well, he had, of course, eleven or 13 children, I think it was eleven children he had. And his third son was Robert E. Lee Hatfield, named after General Lee that he served under in the Confederacy.
Robert had two sons, one John, one craig. And John would be my great grandfather.
His son John Junior had my father, Jack or Jackie seniors, I guess. So that's how I relate back.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Wow. That's unbelievable connection. And the times after the Civil War were so full of hardship as opposed to before the Civil War. But anyway, Jack, folks, Jack is a country boy. But do not underestimate his abilities as he holds an MBA degree and has considerable experience working for Fortune 500 companies. At one time he had over 2700 people working underneath him. And he has a passion for preserving the history and the knowledge that came with the bloody Hatfield and McCoy feud. It's part of american history and that must take considerable amount of time from your everyday life, Jack?
[00:03:23] Speaker B: It is my everyday life, Michael.
I don't. You know, it's all I do and focus on now, of course, I live on site of devilance's last home place, where he hid out during the feud and stayed here till he passed in 1921.
But after retiring from the insurance industry during COVID this kind of became my main focus.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Got a passion for it, my friend. First, before we get started with this, a few words about appalachian conditions before and after the civil war. Before the civil war, the population was sparse. And the people that lived there would find enough resources to grow crops and to maintain themselves. They would be from farm to table, and they would get along just fine. But after the civil war, the population increased considerably. And now the land had to take care of many more people and inhabitants. And that was really tough, and it led to hardship, economic conditions. At that time, Appalachia is Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. And in 1860, the civilization was really the western frontier, which is really strange, but to me. But it was. The region especially lacked well established law and order and courts and law enforcement agencies. They did exist, but they weren't incredibly effective. And the sparse population was. Was really the answer prior to that date. But the big prop for the time was corn game was plentiful. What do you say, Jack, about after the civil war? What happened in Appalachia?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Well, it was pretty devastated. You know, we had a lot of the battles here in Appalachia and West Virginia being a brand new state born out of the civil war, the only state born from the civil war, of course, the states were fighting for each other's rights.
So it was messy, it was bloody.
And then when you're in such a remote area as this in Appalachia, we're deep in Appalachia.
Very hard to come by resources even today, you know, even me running this museum and business here to find the resources to do what I've been trying to do has been next to impossible. So, you know, I can't even imagine what it was like back then here in the area after all of, you know, all that mess from the civil war coming through here. And then, you know, we ended up going to the coal mine, the coal mine wars, you know, which shaped our labor laws and everything. Today, people really do not understand the gravity that Appalachia, particularly this area here, which we now call the coal fields, played in America's legal system and social system and everything that we even are still going by today. So it's quite interesting how it all has unfolded through the years, for sure.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So after the civil war, everything tended to go towards commercialism as far as the economy, whereas before the civil war, it was people farming. So you had a lot of farmers. It began sparse population, but then after the hardship, was there because of that increased population. Well, now everybody has been sitting and waiting and wanting to know, how did this blood feud began. These were neighbors on the Tug river, and they were friends. And what happened? How did this get so far out of control? Jack?
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Well, first, let me make a little disclaimer. I am not a historian.
I am a proud grandson who's been able to collect a lot of knowledge from a lot of sources.
You know, there are a lot of theories out there about the feud and what's happened and take place, and unfortunately, a lot of them are not documented.
So we do have some documentation, of course, with the legal system and things that it filtered through back then.
But, you know, it is a really sad and tragic story that this area has endured, and now it's a whole different story today. But even over the past 150 years, this area just keeps getting hit with tragedy after tragedy after tragedy.
But basically it all began over the civil war, actually.
I know a lot of people talk about the hog, and they think it's over a hog, which drives me crazy, but it's far beyond that.
But, you know, there was an incident in the civil war where Devil Lance was protecting his platoon over on what we call Devil's backbone mountain, not far from here. And during that incident, that battle over on Devil's backbone mountain, they were surrounded by Union soldiers, and he was known for his marksmanship. You know, you were talking about, you know, the plentiful game and hunting. That's what he did. He was a farmer.
So if you look at his muster rolls, he, you know, shows him listing as a farmer.
And he was a very avid hunter. He loved to hunt, especially bear.
But I, you know, he was known to be a crack shot. That was for his marksmanship. So he told his, his platoon, you know, load your guns, throw them beside me, and run down that back path. It's only way out. If you don't, we'll all die. So he was going to hold them off, and he did. And miraculously, he made it back home, which turned into, you know, the whole feud and how that began.
When he came back to his community, you know, he found it burning. You know, the community was in ruins. So, you know, when the Union soldiers were coming through, of course they were pillaging, ravaging, burning crops. Homes doing really bad things to the family members left behind. Um, you know, if you were a man during that time and had a gun, you were out fighting. So that left your farms and your family wide open game, you know, and to the victor goes the spoils of war, right? So when they came back from that incident, that's when they created the Logan Wildcats, which was made up of militia. It was a local militia because we talked about how, you know, law and order was not really even set up. You got to think West Virginia wasn't even a state at that point. You know, it was becoming a brand new state. So to have law and order set up this deep in Appalachia, no, that was no way. That was years to come past that.
So all these confederate veterans abandoned the war and went awol, including devil ants, and they created a local militia called the Logan Wildcats. And the Logan Wildcats became a recognized police force, I guess we'll call it in the area by the governor of West Virginia to help maintain and protect West Virginia's border right here with Kentucky. And because kind of a tribe border.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: And families were so large back then, I believe, like, there was 13 family members with Devil Anz's family. And you come back and you find that your family had been pillaged and your home burnt and in ruins. And whether or not you were on one side or the other of the civil war, the sympathies were pretty much down the middle, I understand. And so you had union people, you had confederate people, but it went far beyond the initial cause when things affected your family, correct?
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Far braun anyone could have ever imagined, in many ways, which we'll talk about.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. So what happened when he came back and they formed the Logan wildcats? He turned into a commercialist, he meaning devil ants, did he not? Didn't he get into the lumber industry?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: And wasn't that the biggest after the war, as you said, you know, things in Appalachia started turning commercial. So he went into logging and opened his own logging business and became very wealthy utilizing that business. So he brought himself up from absolutely nothing to. There's been rumors, I don't know the number. There's been rumors of up to 5 million of his value back then.
Early 19 hundreds, I will say. You know, the home that was here on the property was quite massive at the time compared to, you know, people living in shacks around here this deep in the mountains. So, I mean, you know, it was definitely a marvel to see coming through Appalachia. And then you run into this big, huge you know, mansion in the middle of the woods, but yeah, he became a loggerhead.
And after the civil war, that's what he went into.
They called him a man of what was called. Of course they call him a man in the mountains, but a man of many talents he ended up becoming. Later on, he ended up selling all that land to coal companies and railways and then became consultants for the railways and the coal companies on where to find the coal. And he knew the land so well where he hunted so much and knew all his land so well that he then consulted the railways on the least path of resistance to get the coal out on the railways.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. Remax. And here's Michael Hatfield, business owners. Have you considered how important the appearance and impression your offices make to prospective customers? Appearance and impression are critical to clients, thus to your overall success. If your company could use that warm, inviting and welcoming appearance. I have an amazing complex of offices just listed for lease in the quaint town of Danville. Freshly remodeled, meticulously built, the 3700 square foot space enjoys incredible street exposure, front and side entrances, abundant parking, reception, conference room, eleven individual offices, even a team member kitchen. This premium space is located in a blue ribbon building maintained by the renowned Sherman Properties group. Waste not 1 minute. Call us now. Get help with buying or selling by calling the Michael Hatfield remax support team at 1800 857 63. That's 1800 857.63. And now back to our show.
Wow.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: So he kind of tripled down on his money. He was a very smart man.
He definitely knew what he was doing. No doubt about it.
[00:15:34] Speaker A: So during the war, did he not fight with the other head, the other patriarch of the McCoy family? They were friends, Randall McCoy. And then what happened? When I, Devil Anz left the war, he came back to Sara Ann.
Randall McCoy stayed in and fought, did he not?
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Yes, he did. He stayed in, fought. And there was some animosity, of course, over that because they see the Logan Wildcats, they were deserters of the war. But I would have made the same decision if I was in their shoes. I'd be protecting my home and my family. You know, you had to protect your, your and your own first, you know, before you can help someone else.
So I don't, you know, I don't blame them for doing what they did at all. I would have made the same decision. But of course, you know, there was some animosity there from that.
But what really kicked everything off, you know, I was talking earlier about that devil's backbone incident, where Devil Lance held off the. The Union soldiers so his confederate platoon could escape the.
I think it was the captain, again, not a historian. So I think it was the captain for the Union crew that was there that devilance took out. He wanted revenge for that situation in the civil war. So while devilance is out logging, working in his business, that union captain recruited his best known shot from his platoons, which was a fellow by the name of Asa Harmon McCoy. That was Randall McCoy's brother. So, you know, you had brother against brother in the civil war, you know. So Randall McCoy was a confederate soldier.
His brother Asa was a Union soldier.
So he recruited Asa to help take out devil ants for revenge. Well, they missed. Devilance don't miss.
So they took out the union or the captain that day, but Asa Harmon McCoy escaped.
So the Logan wildcats hunted down Asa and took their revenge and killed him.
And since.
Yep. And that was ever situation and killing of the Hatfield McCoy feud. Some historians and people don't count that as, you know, the beginning, but it clearly was to me.
But that's the date I go by when they say the feud went for 30 years, what have you. That's the date I go by, which is when Asa Herman McCoy was killed by the Logan wildcats.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: So here we are in the civil war, they're fighting, and then devilance leaves and founds the Logan wildcats. But he leaves the war. Randall continues to fight. And I understood, and I may be wrong with this, but I understand that Randall McCoy was actually put in a military prison for a short while. And so when he came out, the Hatfield family, under devil ants, had done well in the lumber industry. And the autumn animosities were just so deep between the two of them. Plus, the event that you addressed with Asa Asa Harmon McCoy, and that. That just really had to ignite it. Can we digress just a second here? Let's talk about the actual area. This isn't a big area where this feud actually took place. Tell us about that, Jack.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Yeah, they actually. I have a cool little map I can probably send you if you need. But they all lived within a five mile radius of each other when the feud began.
And during the civil war, there is the Tug river. We also call this the tug valley. The Tug river separates the states of West Virginia and Kentucky. And then we have Virginia border not far as well. So we have a tri state border. But where we are at specifically and where all this took place was on the border of Kentucky and West Virginia, which, remember, the civil war was just ending. States were fighting for their rights and we didn't have a federal government system like we're used to today. It was very different.
So it became a legal nightmare, which I'm sure we'll get into. But, you know, in the area here, you know, you're within a five mile radius and a state line separating the two of you.
Every household of every member in the feud was within 5 miles.
Dev Lance was quoted that he was going so far back in the mountains that if the mccoys ever found him, he'd have a moat around his property and they would shoot him before or shoot them before they got across.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.
Welcome to the real estate minute with Re Max expert Michael Hatfield. Michael, what traits should we look for in selecting an agent? Look for a deal maker with a positive attitude who will work tirelessly for you. An agent who is adept in multiple offer situations, drafting contracts, marketing and advertising. A client's home is familiar with multiple cultures, experienced in mortgage financing, inspections and escrow is a huge asset to his client. What can you do as a plus for clients? Your agent is your eyes and your ears. One who works behind the scenes on your behalf. A great attitude, working well with others and keeping clients priorities. Number one is a given for us. Call nine now to schedule an appointment or complimentary home analysis. For excellence in real estate, call the Michael hatfield remax team at 925-32-2775 or go to michaelhatfieldhomes.com dot. Well, we were in the market to buy a house in Pleasanton for a very long time. So we saw this beautiful house. We walk in, we see Michael and Nancy. We just absolutely loved this house. Michael brought in a wealth of knowledge and experience to the whole home buying process. He was very professional. And both Michael and Nancy went way above and beyond to help us and to help us achieve the house of our dreams.
Now back to our show.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: And that's what he did and that's the location we're at. He came about ten more miles inland into the mountains and, you know, made him a hideout and later became, you know, his home for life.
But it's a very small area, very rural, you know, it, it was. It was just such a nightmare and such a legal nightmare between the borders of the states.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: I understand. It was really hard times, you know, so it was hard times. After the civil war, deepest felt animosities between Randall McCoy and Devil Anz Hatfield. And the hardship of the families was, was so, so bad. And now we have this captain that had tried to take out devil ants, and now we're up to the point where the feud actually began, where Asa Harmon McCoy was shot and killed. And it's unclear who did that. There is some speculation that Uncle Jim did that, Uncle Jim Vance, and it's not clear, but it was definitely the Logan wildcats that had actually did it. And I understand devil Lance was actually at home sick during that period of time. Is that what, to your knowledge?
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there has been any evidence that he was actually part of the Logan Wildcats.
It's quite interesting that that's one part that does baffle me with everything, because they were so instrumental and everything explicitly for him, about him. So it's quite interesting.
But, yeah, it was definitely the Logan Wildcats. Jim Vance uncle was part of the wildcats and you know it as well as a lot of other confederate veterans in the area.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: So food was tough, animosities really ran deep, and people were looking for ways to make money so that they could support their families. Their families were, quite candidly, they were usually pretty large. You know, 13 people in the Hatfield family, 17 people on the McCoy side of Randall's family. A lot of people and a lot of people. A lot of mouths to feed really hard. And one of the things, just as a quick and aside, before we move on with the events of the feud, is that one of the products that came out of the times was what we call moonshine. Whiskey. Whiskey. Every family tended to have their own, still making their own whiskey, and they imbibed in that a lot, too, which changes people's view on things even more. So animosity's deeper. Food is scarce, hardships around, and, you know, there's this hate and brewing with these families, correct?
[00:25:30] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, big time. You know, my grandfather particularly, and John circumflex were big into the moonshine industry to support themselves and their families. And Dev Lance, only he never lost any children to the feud at all, surprisingly, unlike Randall McCoy. But he did end up losing two sons to moonshining.
They had a shootout with the Italians in Fayette county over liquor distributing rights, and all three of them ended up killing each other during the shootout because they were all three such good shots.
But, yeah, it was a huge, huge industry at the time, moonshining. So the family was definitely known for their moonshine.
And of course, they're shooting, for sure.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Unbelievable. So now we have the Civil War ending and all of these economic conditions and hardships that are going on, and the animosities that are going on. Bitter, bitter rivalries occurred between members of both families. And is it true that at one time they were just the best of friends? You know, the Hatfields on the side of West Virginia, Tug river, they lived there and then the McCoys on the Kentucky side, and they were happy and harmonious. And then the war happened. And then all of this exploded and ignited into the feud. So much animosity, hardship, bloodshed, making up this part of appalachian and american history not at all charming, but history nevertheless.
Next week, I hope you tune in for part two of blood red, the Hatfield McCoy feud, a three part series. Thank you so much for being on the show. Jack Hatfield junior, third great grandson of William Anse Devil Lance Hatfield. They called him devilance, a man they said was six foot of devil and 180 pounds of pure hell. You've been listening to the real estate and more show. We'll be back shortly with our next special guest. Stay tuned.
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